An Honest Debate/Whoeveristhirsty.com

Dear Rev. Carlton,

While I admire your passion for your premillennial dispensationalism, your smearing of Amillennialism is quite inaccurate and unfair. There may be some anti-semitic Amillennialist [just as there have been a fair number of anti-semitic baptist] but the belief is not at all anti-semitic, in fact it, on the contrary, allows a reasonably balanced view of the modern Jewish state of Israel. The assertion that Amillennialist believe that the Jews gave up the promises and retain the curses [I assume that refers to the blessings and curses from Joshua] is a thousand miles from an accurate view of Amillennialism as actually held by those of us who believe it. Paul goes out of his way to point out that if branches were broken off so that we could be grafted in contrary to nature, how much more can the natural branches be grafted back in. You unfairly and inaccurately substitute the term “the New Israel” for the biblical term in Jesus words out of these stones I can make “children to Abraham.” The stones to which he referred were the hard harts of the Gentiles. If you really believe that God loves someone more because they are both a Jew and a Christian you know less with the benefit of the whole New Testament than Isaiah knew with the light that God permitted him. He candidly pointed out that God loved Ethiopia just as much as Israel. If I ask one of my children to take on a task that will be very important for the survival of the whole family, the fact that I didn’t ask one of the others is no indication of my degree of love for the one over the others. You seem to think that it would or should. That is not true — it’s sad. God asked Abraham to keep the covenant so that he and his descendants could keep Gods record of His redemptive work and plan until Christ could reveal that truth to all men. Abraham was more suited to the task [a trait that his descendants could look to for strength for the task through long generations]. I can point to an ancestor of my who fought in the Battle of Hastings. I don’t delude myself to the effect that this is anything for me to be proud of. It is equally perverse for the church to encourage that kind of view to be taken by the modern state of Israel. Israel is a good hearted liberal democracy and should be supported for that reason and none other. Certainly not because God has involved Himself in the politics of our time. If God has intervened, and providentially I’m sure there are reasons he must every day, they are not, I believe for the reasons you suggest in your teaching. Well, for what they are worth these are my thoughts. God Bless.

Eric Stroud

Eric, call me Mark. I stand by my asessment of Amillennial theology. Not everyone who holds to it is an antisemitite, but I am convinced that the foundations of the theological system are antisemitic.

When people do bad things (like persecute others) they have to have a justification for their actions. The excuse for Christian antisemitism has always been replacement theology. The primary carrier of this virus is amillennialism.

I also want to say that you misstate my position. First, my position has nothing to do with a commitment to dispensational premillennialism (and I am not presently serving a Baptist church). I would oppose replacement theology even if I were an atheist. My views come from reading and studying the phenomenon of antisemitism. I dare say most Christians have not read even one book on the subject. I’ve read many and am convinced that amillennial/replacement theology lies at the root of this spiritual disease.

Also, I do not believe that God loves someone more because he is a Jew, Christian, Muslim, etc. I do believe that God has entered into a covenant relationship, not just with Abraham, but with His son, Isaac, and then with his son, Israel (Jacob), and I believe that God will be true to his word. To me, that’s what it all comes down to; can God be trusted to keep his promises. I believe what Jeremiah wrote:

Thus saith the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day, and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; the Lord of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then the offspring of Irael also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith the Lord, if theheavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will also cast off the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the Lord.

I saw the sun this morning, the moon and stars are out tonight, so I’m assuming that God will follow through on his promises to Israel.

I do think that you stated well one of the reasons replacement theology is gaining popularity. Many Christians want to take “a more balanced (politically correct) view of the modern Jewish state of Israel,” and amillennialism, as you stated, allows them to do this. I also note that this more balanced view would result in the destruction of the Jewish state.

There are currently around six million Jews living in Israel. At the present hour they fighting for their very right to exist. We’ve seen the enemies of the Jewish people kill six million once before, and I refuse to remain silent while the church re-embraces the theology that allowed them to excuse or ignore it last time.

Mark,

Thank you for your kindness in the hearing of my point of view. I am very sympathetic to your strong desire to see the state of Israel succeed. I share at least that view. If Israel is forced to bomb Iran because of an imminent nuclear threat, I will be at the front of the line supporting any reasonable policy that causes us to help them politically, materially, rhetorically, militarily or otherwise. They are like us in many ways and our interest run in the same direction. They are not harming anyone in my view by merely existing. Strategically, they are more than the “canary in the coal mine,” they can’t afford to be sacrificed. They are a bastion of reason, freedom, and enlightenment in a hot bed of envy, superstition, competitive treachery, and strife. That having been said, this is my political assessment not my religious position.

It would be a tragedy though if we were to believe that God’s providential hand needs some kind of help from me, or the US president, or congress, or the United Nations, or any one else. I think I have come to see that while God redeems the consequences of our sins to bring about good all the time, he is not impeded in any way by people not doing evil in bringing about His objectives. In other words God could have kept his promise to Jacob even if he were as honest and trustworthy as his grandfather.

So, the fear that some in Europe have, that Americans believing that God is bringing history to a literal not spiritual Armageddon, may be lulled into a kind of complacency that allow events in the Middle east to spin out of control, accomplishing that fact, is a concern I share. If we believe as an article of faith that we can not influence a better outcome, that is a matter for concern. That belief itself could dull our wits when they are needed at the critical moment. If I’m wrong and this is God’s revealed will in Revelations, people like me who see Armageddon as a spiritual not physical; fight couldn’t stop it on our most influential day.

What we do know is that the opposite view where we are saved from the carnage of Armageddon not by Jesus return but by the Twelfth Imam is very much believed by Ahmadinejad. What a tragedy it would be to stumble into a war only to find out that far from the end of days it was just another sad opportunity to kill some odd tens or hundreds of millions of people. The only way to know is to fight it and observe whether or not Jesus or the Twelfth Imam indeed shows up to stop it before the carnage.

Sadly, that option has been tried too many times in the sad course of human history. The prospect of an Evangelical version of Ahmadinejad making the sincere reciprocal miscalculation, misinterpretation both expecting to be saved from the consequences of their actions by God/Allah at the last moment in kind of a monotheistic, dualistic battle, fought with Daisy Cutters, Moab’s, and nuclear weapons is the stuff of nightmares.

It is not my intention to make anyone look a fool for disagreeing. I humbly acknowledge that I could have this all wrong. But that belief is balanced with the knowledge that God’s will, will in fact be done no matter what I believe about it. That would be true even if I had the power to convert everyone to my point of view tomorrow. If you won’t take my word on that last point, just ask Hal Lindsey. I believe I have come to my conclusions not on my desire to sound good relative to some political expectation, but by my reading of the scriptures and a dismal two thousand year track record of misinterpretation of the writings of John the Devine [or John the Apostle if you prefer]. I think we both agree that every word he wrote is true; it’s what it means that causes us to part ways.

Where you say many Christians have not read a single book on the subject of amillennialism, that would be true of me. I’d be willing to read whatever you think makes the best case for the view you advocate. But just as I didn’t come to this view to conform to the views of anyone that I know, I expect I will not leave the view on such grounds either. One of my good Christian friends, an elder in the church to which I belong happens to be Jewish. I don’t know for absolute certain but I suspect that my politics are substantially more pro-Israel than his. My politics I believe are a bit more conservative than his so we don’t dwell on the subject.

I’m leaving this post because you have done an excellent job in gathering some good material, views and scholarship. Your writing is of a high quality and very insightful, even if we do disagree on this point.

I intended to leave this thread under your comments about Rev. Wright [now of infamy] and his Obama connection. If I disagree with you a little, I disagree with him a great deal. The appearance of this thread here may leave the impression that I have serious problems with the thrust of your ministry which is not at all true. I’m afraid I had too many windows open when I clipped the original message in.

God bless you in your continued work. I will remember to include your continued ministry in my prayers. Maranatha!

Eric Stroud

Eric thank you for your letter. I can see where you are coming from and I appreciate your concern, more perhaps than you realize. I want you to know that I distinguish between Amillennialism/replacement theology and those who hold to it. One of my dearest friends, a man who was instumental in my coming to genuine faith, and perhaps my oldest mentor, is reformed in his theology and amill. I love him deeply, am forever indebted to him, and respect him more than I can say. I just disagree with him and believe that he holds a position with a built in anti-jewish bias.

I also want to let you know that you say all sorts of things that I agree with completely. I especially agree with this paragraph:

“It would be a tragedy though if we were to believe that God’s providential hand needs some kind of help from me, or the US president, or congress, or the United Nations, or any one else. I think I have come to see that while God redeems the consequences of our sins to bring about good all the time, he is not impeded in any way by people not doing evil in bringing about His objectives. In other words God could have kept his promise to Jacob even if he were as honest and trustworthy as his grandfather.” AMEN!

Eric, I would be as bothered as you are by anyone trying to help God out. Just last night I read an interesting verse in Amos that I think says it well: “Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord! Why do yo long for the day of the Lord? That day will be darkness not light.” I think there is sometimes a rhetoric from premillennialists that would give the impression we can hardly wait for the the apocalypse to get going. I sometimes shudder when I hear it. But I think what it really is, at its core, is a desire for the coming of Christ, which is not a bad thing. One of the things that bothers me about amills is that they are so excited about building the kingdom that they don’t seem to have much of a desire for the return of the king. But I digress.

You write: “So, the fear that some in Europe have, that Americans believing that God is bringing history to a literal not spiritual Armageddon, may be lulled into a kind of complacency that allow events in the Middle east to spin out of control, accomplishing that fact, is a concern I share.”

I assume that you are writing from Europe, and I know that there is a fear that our foreign policy is being driven the religious right towards Armageddon. Frankly, I think this is a false, media driven fear. The religious right has no real power in the United States. It is really just a pon of the political hacks in the Republican party (I know this because my daughter has been heavily involved in Republican politics). They give lip service to our issues, but they never do anything about them (nor do they ever intend to) because they would rather have the issues than a solution. The issues keep us coming out to vote. If they solved our issues we might stay home. They need our votes. So fear not, George Bush is not being driven by a hidden pre-mill agenda. A man can be a nincompoop without having ideologically driven motivation.

I also think your assessment of the current mess in the Middle East is very good. I would add this, even though I do take a futurist view of the prophetic scriptures, this does not mean that I think we should not work for a just peace in the Middle East. God will bring events to their appointed end in his own time and his own way, and He does not need our help. In the meantime we are to do good, and trying to facilitate as much peace as we can in this old sin cursed world just makes sense to me.

As far as anti-semitism is concerned, I would suggest you start with something like “Antisemitism: Myth and Hate from antiquity to the present. By Marvin Perry and Frederick M. Schweitzer, or The History of Antisemitism, by Leon Poleakov. Here’s the problem I ran into when I began reading on this subject; you will not find much written from a Christian perspective. You will also be shocked to read the extent of the damage that has been done and sometimes by Christians we probably both admire.

I wanted to know, why? Why have Christians persecuted and killed Jews? I didn’t start with the answer I finally came to, but I cannot think of one that fits the facts better. From my reading, it just seems that before people who know better persecute or kill someone they have to convince themselves that they are justified in doing it. The church has had its excuse, and it has been rooted in a theology that was developed after the age of the apostles (in the hotbed of pagan antisemitism, Alexandria). It is a theology which was developed by gentiles. On behalf of God, and in spite of Paul’s teaching in Romans, this theology disowns the Jewish people, seizes their covenants and even their name — Israel — and emboldens the spiritual children of Abrahan to persecute his actual seed.

If my answer is wrong I am open to another one. If not replacement theology, what then? Why has Christian antisemitism been the most deadly form of this terrible ideology?

Thank you for your kind words about my writing.

Mark

Mark,

I will look into the books you suggest. I did a couple of Google searches to scan their reviews and they appear quite scholastically impressive.

Rereading my post I can see how you could get the idea that I’m European. Actually, I grew up on the Great Plains and now live in the Midwest.

I have interfaced with this subject a couple of times when Revelations has been selected by a Sunday school class or small group I attend and was called upon to facilitate the conversation. I always took the approach of presenting the various interpretations of the text and to the extent possible cull out the concepts that we could apply to our lives regardless of which of the interpretations is true. Having gone through that exercise at least twice in the last ten years, I was persuaded to the amillennialist view after reading Jack Cottrell’s excellent book “The Faith Once for All.” Ironically, Chuck Colson is promoting a book [no doubt ghost written for him, as were his others] by almost exactly the same title.

I am sensitive to the fact that wrong beliefs can have unintended consequences a generation later. That was surely true of it the writings of Søren Kierkegaard and Friedrich Nietzsche; although that is probably less true of Nietzsche. On the other hand if the problem is not the doctrine itself, but whether or not the application is reasonable, then that is important to discover as well.

I’d like to thank you for taking your valuable time to respond to my comments. It is plain to me that you have a real heart for Christ’s work. God bless you and thanks again.

Eric

Thank you Eric. And God bless you as you continue to seek him. I hope you will read and consider the question I raised. As you read the literature on antisemitsm I think the “why question,” will begin to trouble you as much as it has troubled me. I would be interested in your answer at some future time.

I do understand the attraction to amillennial theology. There are few theological systems more logical, and intellectually minded individuals are naturally drawn to such symmitry. But Jesus has taught us that the test of a doctrine is its fruit. It seem to me that at some point you look at all of the blood that has been shed and justified by replacement theology and ask, “Is this just an unintended consequence of this teaching or its fruit?”

I have enjoyed this correspondence. I hope you will keep reading and stay in touch. Our difference on this doctrinal issue does not weaken the bond that joins us, dear brother. God bless you richly.